John Carlton is a copywriting legend, a world-class copywriter firmly at the red-hot center of the marketing world, both online and offline. He's been a freelance copywriter and marketing consultant for 25 years, but he's probably best known as the author of Kick-Ass Copywriting Secrets of a Marketing Rebel. He is the recognized expert when it comes to copywriting and the marketing issues tied to it.
His career arc is legendary, having worked with the big names in Internet marketing, as well as pioneering online advertising tactics, starring as the featured speaker at major marketing seminars, and running his own workshop seminars on copywriting and marketing, which sell out at $5,000 per attendee. His podcasts, teleseminars and interviews are must-hear material for every serious marketer.
He is frequently praised for his teaching abilities, and others defer to his expertise at crafting killer sales copy. He is a central character in the amazing explosion of online business, responsible for many innovations and famous for helping a host of top marketers get started with his brutal, real-world advice and specific advertising makeovers.
JOHN CARLTON: Hi, Ric. How are you doing?
RIC THOMPSON: I'm doing fantastic. I'm looking forward to this talk today. You are definitely the expert when it comes to copywriting out there.
JOHN CARLTON: I like to think of myself as such. I'm sure there are a few people hither and yon who would disagree, but I'm most proud of the mob of people who quite generously say that I helped get them going writing copy both online and offline. I'll tell you, Ric, just to start this off and give people an anchor to think about why I do this, back when I started out, I didn't know what copywriting was.
I was one of the original slackers. I was just taking part-time jobs. I was living close to the ground. I actually lived out of my car for six months once, just traveling up and down the west coast of the States. I had a job as a commercial artist. I was doing paste-up in a Silicon Valley computer supply catalog in the late '70s. This was mainframe stuff. This was actually before PCs.
I met my first copywriter, and I remember asking her because I was so fascinated with the idea that there was somebody behind the words that were going into the catalogs and magazines and things like that. I was always interested in writing, but I never put two and two together and thought, "There's actually somebody behind the words." I asked her, "How do you become a copywriter?"
She looked at me, sighed, rolled her eyes, and said, "It's really hard. You'll never figure it out." That pissed me off so much. I stole her copy of John Caples' Tested Advertising Methods and read enough of it before she stole it back to whet my appetite. From there, I went off on a kind of journey of seeking out how to become a copywriter. Back then, there were no courses, there were no seminars, and there were no mentors.
There was nowhere you could go to learn how to be a copywriter. It was all an organic process, mostly through the agencies. There were very few freelancers back then, in fact. I made a vow to myself that if I did figure this out and become a successful copywriter that I would not be that person who refused to teach others. In fact, I would go out of my way to teach others. Now, after 20 years in the trenches as a freelancer, I've essentially retired as a freelancer.
I have a few private clients, but mostly I'm devoting myself to teaching. That's why when you say I'm most well-known for Kick-Ass Copywriting Secrets course, I did that back in 2001. It was really meant to be the thing that I didn't have that would really shortcut all the nonsense and help other people go quickly into the world of writing their own copy and being able to use that to start their own businesses.
I really wasn't thinking about the online part of it, but once web marketing got going in earnest, the whole idea of being able to do this very quickly and in a shortcut way really hit home with a lot of the guys who were trying to get their websites going very quickly. They were taking advantage of the way that the web is so different from the old ways of using direct mail, direct response print advertising, or even television.
It just struck a nerve, and I'm very proud of the fact that a great number of the online marketers out there give me credit for helping them solve that initial mystery, which really is the crux of all the business you're going to do. My motto is that nothing happens until the copy gets written. Videos don't get shot, and sales messages don't get out. Nothing happens until the copy gets written.
It's the number one sticking point for every single marketer no matter what you're doing out there. You need to get stuff written down. You need to have a clear sales message. You need to have content that strikes a chord in the audience you're after. You need to be able to build a list, nurture it, and be essentially intimate with the people who are your prospects.
There's a lot of other competition out there, so you really need to understand how to translate the thoughts in your head, the sales message. You may be a whiz face to face, but you need to get it not just in writing, but into a sales message. Again, that may be an audio, video, or in a number of different ways. It all comes back to learning how to write.
RIC THOMPSON: You mentioned a few things in there, John, that I want to build upon. You talked about there being some differences in TV versus radio versus online versus postcards or whatever, but at the end of the day, aren't there some universal laws of copywriting that apply no matter what?
JOHN CARLTON: Absolutely, Ric. I gave a talk down in San Diego this most recent summer, and it was the first time I gave this talk. I gave a customized speech for this particular event to be able to fit in with everything else that was going on. It was about storytelling. That's a good example of how the basics of great advertising all come down to this human-level ancient method of communication.
Before there was writing, there was just storytelling. We are hardwired to listen to good stories, not bad stories or long, rambling, tangent-filled stories with no point, but concise, meaningful stories that reach into our heart, wake us up, get our blood moving, and stir us. They can be short. They can be as short as three sentences. In fact, what I was teaching was how to tell a story in three sentences.
The greatest part of copy-whether it's on the radio, a print ad, a piece of mail, online, in a video, or however it's presented, even face to face-is that in some way you're reaching into that storytelling part of the hardwiring in our brains. You're telling the story. It may be an obvious story where you say, "I was once so broke that I had to sleep in my car for six months, and now I'm so rich that I have 15 cars and my own sleeper car on the Zephyr train going up and down the California coast."
You can tell that kind of story. Even if it's not an obvious story, even if you're just saying, "Are you looking for a better widget? I have a better widget. Here's why my widget is better," you're crafting a story. If you're boring, you'll lose your audience. Find that hook, the essential essence of the need. Remember, it's not what you say about it that counts but rather what the reader is finding that fills a hole in his life, fixes a problem, presents a solution, or just makes his life better.
That's what you're looking for. You tell the story that he is able to put into his head to both rationally and emotionally make the decision to buy, because buying is always an emotional decision. People like to think it's a rational, well-thought-out process where you say, "Let's do two columns. This is what's good about this product. This is what's bad." People will go through this, and you do need to do that.
In copywriting, we call those the features, the kind of thud stuff of the product: how much it weighs, how fast it is, how many volumes there are, how many discs are in the DVD set, and things like that. Those are all features. Those are nice, but the real reasons somebody is going to buy it are the emotional things, what that stuff represents, what it's going to do for you on a very human level in your life, and how it's going to make your life better, fulfill your dreams, or allow you to start dreaming again.
There are all these things that are going to happen, but that's an emotional basis. This is very critical. You need to give somebody a reason to tell other people, especially the doubters in their life, why they buy. That's why we come up with guarantees, and that's why we keep talking about the value, the investment you're making, and things like that. No matter what it is you're selling, you need to give him three or more reasons.
He can take them to his skeptical spouse, his neighbor who's always telling him he made the wrong decision, or to doubting brother-in-law who would love to hear that he made a bad investment and failed. Not only do you need to emotionally grab him and fulfill all of his needs to be able to buy, but you need to give him the ammunition, so to speak, to be able to say in very succinct, simple terms to somebody who doubts him.
When somebody says, "Why did you buy that?" He'll say, "It's blank, blank, blank." You give him that stuff, so it helps support his otherwise emotional decision to buy. That was a brain-full of stuff there. That was actually a summation of an entire course. That's a glimpse of what has to go into copy. Now I don't mean to say that means that copy is therefore so complex that you can't write unless you've been studying it very deeply and mentored with someone like me or someone else who's been in the business for a long time.
There are shortcuts. Just keep remembering that it gets back to that human-to-human thing. I like to call it the bar-room conversation where you're sitting at a bar, or a café, if you don't drink. Somebody comes and sits next to you and says to the bartender, not to you, "I'm having a really bad day. I've been trying to do this, and I have this problem." The problem they describe to the bartender is exactly the problem that your product, service, or whatever solves.
Think about how you would talk to that guy. That's what your ad has to do. A lot of people think, "You just slap him on the shoulder and say, 'I can solve that. I have the best darn thing.'" If you think about the reality of that situation, that's not how it would work. This guy doesn't know you. He's skeptical. He's ready to bolt at the first sign that you're crazy, boring, or going to try to sell him.
He's not willingly going to sit there and let you chatter away about how great you are, how great your product is, and how wonderful his life is going to be. You need to have some kind of contact with him. You need to have a clear message that brings him in slowly and that answers his objections quickly and succinctly. Second by second, help him decide, "Let's hear what he has to say. Let's hear what else he has to say. Let's hear what else he has to say."
As a stranger, the guy is going to look at you and think, "Who is this guy?" Then as soon as he suspects you're trying to sell him something, he's going to bolt. When you think about it in those very human terms, your ad-whether it's a website, video, print ad, or piece of mail-is your little, tiny salesman getting into this guy's life. A lot of times it's unwelcome, unexpected, and a surprise. He hasn't got time for you.
All of these things enter in, but this is what I usually talk about with clients. If they can sell somebody face to face who has a slight interest in what they have, if they're confident they can sit down and sell to them face to face, then I'm confident that guy has the chops to be able to sell to millions of people in the same way through a written ad, posted website, video, audio, or any of the other mediums we have for doing that. That was another brain-full. Sorry, Ric.
RIC THOMPSON: No, it's fantastic stuff. That last statement there begs me to think that we have a lot of entrepreneurs and small business folks out there who aren't star salespeople going toe to toe and belly to belly. If I'm in that category, which I imagine most entrepreneurs are, what's your advice?
JOHN CARLTON: I don't want to seem like a barker saying, "Buy my stuff," but that's really it. That's why I wrote Kick-Ass Copywriting Secrets of a Marketing Rebel. It's a fast read. If you've ever been to my main site www.MarketingRebel.com, you'll see what we call the wall of testimonials. When you look at testimonials, half of them are from famous people and the other half are from regular people.
They're all real testimonials from people who are just raving about what happened to their ability to essentially go from zero to 100, from not having a clue what to write to being able to write stuff that absolutely did the job, brought people in, built their list, and did everything it needed to do in a very quick way. Most of them will tell you it happened immediately. They read it once or twice over a weekend or they went back and it cleared up all the questions.
It's all about shortcuts. Without sounding like I'm pushing this because this is a straight interview, let me say that there are other courses out there. Get something. There are a number of courses, seminars, workshops, and all kinds of stuff out there that will break down that fog of mystery surrounding copywriting. I happen to think that mine is a seminal course and it does the job, but there are others out there.
Choose a guide that you can learn from. Again, I'm not everybody's cup of tea. I'm a little harsh. When I do critiques for people, I give brutal critiques. I really want to make you cry. The reason is not because I'm cruel. Rather, the reason is that there's money on the line here, Ric. When I critique ads and copy, I treat their copy the way I treat my own copy when I'm critiquing my own stuff, and I'm brutal with myself.
This is the real world, and we're adults. If I said, "Your headline is kind of there. Good try. Doggone it, you're just doing swell trying here. Why don't you try that?" and you go out and post that and don't make any money, I've done you a disservice. On the other hand, if I say, "You're missing it. You've totally missed the boat. This does not say anything. It's weak. You're selling from your heels. You're off on tangents. You're not doing this," it may make you feel bad.
I've made a lot of people feel bad, but you're going to know the truth about what's going on from a guy who's been there in the frontline trenches. If you follow my advice, you'll make that better and start firming that thing up. I've gone off on a tangent there, Ric. Did I answer the actual question you asked me there?
RIC THOMPSON: Yes, I think so. The big lesson there is that you're confirming the fact that this is a learnable skill.
JOHN CARLTON: Very much so, yes.
RIC THOMPSON: I think that's kind of the concern there for everybody. This is something that's a skill. You can learn it. There are resources and mentors. You, of course, are at the top of the food chain on that.
JOHN CARLTON: Ric, I think that you bring up a point that probably shouldn't be skipped over. Let me just emphasize this again. Like with me when I first started out, when I met my first copywriter, I knew that people were behind the writing in ads, magazines, novels, and things, but I'd never met anybody before. I didn't understand that somebody was actually doing it as a career or as a job and especially not making money at it.
When I discovered this, just meeting my first copywriter, the veil of mystery started to dissipate. Then I learned how to do it and started learning how to teach other people how to do it, because I took notes throughout my entire career. That's why it was so easy for me to start teaching when I decided to do that. It's a big fog. You don't have the first clue what to do. Once you get in there and start finding out, it's pretty straightforward.
It's communicating. If you can sell face to face, you can do it in print. Just record yourself and copy it. There are all these little tactics you can do to go from not having a clue what to do to having a clue and then to start refining those clues. You don't need to be a world-class copywriter. You just need to have a clear sales message that doesn't bore or scare somebody off.
You need to make sure you're covering simple things like the objections people have to buying right now or taking the next action you want. You're taking someone by the hand, getting their blood moving and excited, and leading them through the sales process. It can be a very short sales process. "Here's why what I have solves the problem that you have. Here's how to find out more.
"Here's how to buy it risk-free for the next six months, and here's why other people have gotten a lot out of this. Here's what you need to do now. Just click on this, I'll walk you through the link, and you can buy it, but you're not at risk for anything. There are no questions asked if you want your money back." You start taking care of those little things, and even a rookie in their first ad-and I have testimonials to this effect-can write an ad that works.
For some of these guys, the first ad they wrote is the best ad they have even a year or two later. It's still pulling better. They couldn't refine it because their passion and heart were there, and all they needed to do was have a template, blueprint, or funnel to channel everything through so it was concise and followed somewhat of a plan. That's why it can be really simple to get it going.
You can even do things you don't understand. You can start countering objections and making sure that people are coming along on your sales process to do the actions that you want without understanding what you're doing and being able to tell someone else, "What I was doing here was countering objections." You could just say, "I'm answering questions," or "I kind of figured he wasn't going to understand this part of the process, so I thought I'd explain it more."
What you're doing is countering a potential objection. You may not know that, but you're still doing it. Yes, you can do it. You don't need to know all the secrets behind it. The big thing is to get the first glimpse of the fact that you can do it. Ric, let me just say that I have another saying. I would rather take a near-illiterate but street-savvy salesman and turn him into a copywriter than take somebody with a PhD in literature and try to turn him into a salesman.
It's about your ability to sell. Most people have it. Most people hide it, ignore it, or haven't honed it. That's why the really important thing there is, can you sell this? Can you sit down with someone who's interested in what you have and close the deal? If you can't, I can help you with that, too. That's why part of what we do is teach people how to close the sale, set up the sale, and work things through.
A lot of people have that ability. They're so passionate about what they have and so interested that when they find someone else who shares their passion and interest, then it's easy. They're saying, "I was very interested in this. I had been lucky enough to spend all of my time refining this particular product or service. I know that if you had the time, you would have done during the last year what I did, which is just immerse myself in this.
"I've read everything there is to know. I've studied this. I've tested and done all this hard work. Here's your opportunity to take advantage of what I've done to shortcut this process. Now you can do it. If you buy my product, become a member, consult with me, or use my services, I will help shortcut it for you." You explain, "You and I share the same passion.
"I've been lucky enough to be able to indulge in it for the last year, five years, eight years, or whatever. I know more than you do right now. When you buy my product or let me help you, you will know what I know, and then we'll both be able to indulge in our passions even more." That was another tangent I ran. I'm chatty today, Ric. You caught me right after I slammed two cups of coffee.
RIC THOMPSON: I think the only complaint we're going to have from people listening to this is, "John, I can't write that fast!" You kind of mentioned a quick thing in there regarding a salesperson versus a major person in literature. I think we need to explore this really quickly because the second thing you explained in there was basically that the focus is on making the ad or sales piece work.
Let's just make this really clear because a lot of folks are just getting started being entrepreneurs or small businesspeople. What is your definition? How do we measure if this ad works? How do we define that?
JOHN CARLTON: Ric, that's the great thing about being online. I'm old-school. I started out in direct mail where you had to rent a list or buy a list from somebody, actually print up letters and envelopes, get stamps on them, wait for the mail to go out, and wait for the responses to come back. It would be a long time. Online, you're able to get results from tests in real time, sometimes in minutes.
If you have the traffic flow, you can actually change headlines, change the offer, or do anything and have an immediate audience of people, a statistically significant number of prospects. Click on that, and you can see for the first 50 minutes of having this website up, we used this headline with this offer. Then for the next 50 minutes, we changed the headline slightly, the benefit of the headline, and we changed the price.
We made it higher, lower, three payments, or we added some value. In each of those 50-minute segments, we got 5,000 visitors. Here are the results. You can look at that and start seeing these real results start coming in. A lot of the guesswork has been taken out of advertising. It used to be the old grizzled guys were most valuable for their experience. Experience still counts, and it's still very important, especially when you don't have test results and you need to get started.
You need to make some basic decisions like, "How much do I charge for this?" There are ways to get a gut-level feeling for this by understanding the market, the average buyer, who you're going after, how the competition is approaching things, and taking all of these factors in. Basically, online is just great. There's no penalty for being wrong. You can change quickly. In the mail, if you were wrong, you can't take that letter back.
You don't get another shot at the eyeballs online that look at your ad, but there are so many more people looking, especially people actually looking for you. You can use AdWords to generate leads by finding people who are already searching for what you offer and then just standing in front of that parade. That's an amazing advantage. You can channel through smart use of Google AdWords to direct people who have already raised their hand and said, "I'm interested in this."
Then it's up to you to follow through on that. I hope that answers your question. You can rephrase it if you don't think I did. Online, it's the whole thing of being able to get going not for free, but for a distant fraction of the cost. If you know how to put your own site up or you know how to get a shopping cart set up and things like that, it's just your time and energy.
People who know how to do the technical side of getting a website up are very inexpensive. You can find them all over the world now. You can have a virtual office, someone from every continent on the planet, working in real time getting things going. It's just stunning to get your head around how fast things can happen, how broad the markets are, how quickly testing can give you exactly what you need to know and move on from there.
RIC THOMPSON: Building upon this testing, let's say I whipped up a sales page. Maybe I'm driving traffic to it through pay-per-click, maybe I've got a list, maybe I'm borrowing a friend's list or whatever, at what point can I feel confident that my numbers are real? Is it when 100 people visit the page, when 1,000 people visit the page, or when 10,000 people visit the page?
JOHN CARLTON: That's a good question.
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